The Digital Revolution with Jim Kunkle

Mindset Before Machines: Why Digital Transformation Needs Humans

• Jim Kunkle • Season 3 • Episode 2

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"Mindset Before Machines: Why Digital Transformation Needs Humans"
Featuring Barbara Wittman, Digital Wisdom Collective

In this episode I sit down with Barbara Wittman, founder of the Digital Wisdom Collective and one of the most insightful voices in human‑centered transformation. Together, we explore a truth too often ignored in boardrooms and technology roadmaps: digital transformation doesn’t begin with tools, it begins with people.

Barbara brings a rare blend of strategic clarity, emotional intelligence, and cultural awareness to the conversation. She breaks down why organizations continue to struggle with transformation despite unprecedented access to technology, and she explains how mindset, behavior, and human infrastructure determine whether digital initiatives thrive or fail.

In this conversation, Barbara and I unpack:
📍Why mindset before machines is the non‑negotiable for transformation  
📍The cultural and psychological barriers that derail digital programs  
📍How leaders can cultivate digital wisdom, not just digital skills  
📍The role of trust, communication, and empowerment in accelerating adoption  
📍Why AI and automation amplify human capability rather than replace it  
📍Practical steps that build a people‑first transformation strategy  

Barbara’s perspective reframes digital transformation as a "human journey", not a technology project. Her insights challenge leaders to rethink how they prepare their teams, structure their organizations, and measure success in an era where intelligent technologies are rewriting the rules of business.

This episode is essential listening for executives, innovators, and anyone committed to building a future where technology elevates, not replaces, the human experience.

Here are this episode's links:

www.digitalwisdom.co  

https://www.linkedin.com/in/barbarawittmann 

https://digitalwisdomcollective.substack.com 

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Jim:

All right, joining me on the digital revolution with Jim Kunkle is Barbara Whitman, and she's from the Digital Wisdom Collective. Barbara, if you could do a favor, if you could give uh background on yourself and also please uh talk about Digital Wisdom Collective.

Barbara:

Yeah, happy to. Thanks for having me this morning. Um, Barbara Whitman. I'm I was born and raised in uh in Germany. Maybe my accent gives me away a little bit. Um and uh for 25 years, and most of it was in Germany and in Europe, um, I was running my own software development business and uh consulting business. And um I was coming in when um digital transformation was going wrong. Um and meaning, and it wasn't just the light damage projects, it was the everyone ran away and they declared it dead kind of things. Um so I came in and uh you know I uncluttered and uh I fixed and um I made a name for myself to doing that. Um so that is how I got thinking about what is really going wrong and how things can go better. And then uh 10 years ago I met my husband um who's American, and uh, you know, we flipped the coin and uh I picked up and I moved. So um I'm now uh north of Denver, Colorado. Um, and with the move to the US, I switched more into an uh interim CIO strategy role. So I pretty much covered a very broad bandwidth of things uh from very high level to really down in the in the nitty-gritty. And um what I have seen over and over again, and that's what what really prompted me to start the Digital Wisdom Collective, is that it's never a technology issue. Um, whenever things go wrong, it is usually a people issue. And you know, I don't want to say that in a in a disrespectful way, but it is um the same patterns over and over again that usually the answers are within the organization. And it does not really help you to add on more external consultants to try and declutter and fix things. It is about empowering the people that are in the organization, give them a voice and a seat at the table so they can add to a solution. So what I did with the Digital Wisdom Collective is basically packaging up my best practice from 25 years of fixing broken things and turn it into an empowerment for leaders and also for organizations to go about things in a more holistic way so they can not only do transformation from within, but also innovate from within with less consulting dependency.

Jim:

And when it comes to, you know, we're gonna be covering, you know, mindset before machines, digital transformation, how it can fail without human infrastructure. Why is that topic, why does it matter so much now? And also, could you talk a little bit about the human gap in digital transformation that we're experiencing at this time?

Barbara:

So digital transformation and the statistics are out there. Um, at this point still, about 70% of all initiatives fail. Um, because we have net not figured out digital transformation, now we simply call it AI transformation. We just slap a different word in front, you know, and then we feel that it's going to go better. That's even going worse. That's uh failing at close to 90% of all projects right now. So this is sort of where we stand. We're just um exchanging, you know, the first word every time, but we have never really dug into what it means to transform. We always look at things just from a technology angle, and uh it really is so much more because it involves culture, it involves people, it involves a dynamic of how we collaborate and work together. And why this becomes so important right now is because we have AI in the mix, and that is the huge buzzword that is just, you know, bobbing around in every room I walk into. And uh people think that this is the unicorn that's going to fix everything. And instead of that, it really shows the ugly underbelly of every organization and it will show you pretty bluntly all the gaps you have in people, in data, in organization, in how you collaborate, how you innovate. Um, so that's why it becomes so much more important. And if we don't touch the human angle now, as AI is getting upgraded at a crazy, crazy speed, we need to see that we continuously upgrade our humans as well and really make them into co-creators with technology. That has always been the angle, but again, with AI, it just kind of all bubbles up and becomes more apparent and more urgent.

Jim:

Yeah, Barbara, this is going to be a great episode, and we're gonna have this opportunity to really talk about the mindset, the infrastructure, and also sustainable changes that need to happen in organizations and also in this sphere related to digital transformation. So, Barbara, let's talk about the myth of tech-first transformation. You know, one of the most common misconceptions that I run in, and I know you run into this every single day, is that companies and leaders say, oh, intelligent technologies, it's gonna fix everything. Can you talk a little bit about that misconception and also why it is so dangerous?

Barbara:

Oh man, I gotta see where I start because there's so much to say about that. Um so the biggest misconception out there is that um we're just gonna add a new tool or uh you know, the new ERP or the latest AI, and then everything is gonna be happy happy. And uh that is you know the biggest thing that I see. Um and that largely lies in the issue that strategy and sea level is not really aligned with um you know what is already there. So it is a um a misalignment of what we have and and where we want to go. Um and that in my mind is simply a mapping issue. It and it's also an issue that the CIO or the head of IT needs to have a seat at the table and needs to be part of every decision, especially on a on a strategy level. Um the other piece that uh that I see a lot, that the voices from the middle of the organization that are executing initiatives are not heard. And they will tell you pretty bluntly if something is possible or not, if something makes sense or not, because they are dealing with it every day. They have a pretty good view of it. So these voices need to be brought to the table when there's a prioritization going on, when there's a new decision of things going on. And um, sometimes I feel like technology is treated like um the next toy to put in a garage. And uh, if you look at that garage, it's pretty freaking cluttered, you know, and you do not know what's in the very back corner of it. And um, when I step into positions as an interim CIO, that's usually the first thing I do. And that is the biggest saving potential that companies have because they're paying for things they don't even remember they have. Um the other piece that I see a lot is we're gonna hire a consultancy and uh we are gonna bring a big name in and they are gonna do great. And I have seen too many times that um, you know, the they don't what what will happen is that uh if you if the organization per se is not ready for this next step in their journey, the consultants will just milk you like a cow. Sorry, consulting colleagues that needed to be said. Um so you need to take a little bit of an inventory, and you need to be ready. Um even when consultants come in, and don't get me wrong, you know, it's a good thing, but they need a little bit of guidance too. So you need to have a layout. You would never build a house without an architecture plan. You would never build a house without seeing if uh, you know, the static is gonna hold if I put on an additional floor. So you need to have a building plan and you need to be able to get people to look at it and say, oh yeah, this is what we're building. Great.

Jim:

Barbara, thank you for going into such depth and detail about that. Let's talk about the cost of ignoring cultural readiness and leadership alignment. Um, what experience have you had related to the aspects of this readiness and also to when you have leadership that might be aligned or misaligned?

Barbara:

Well, um, and there I'm sure there's a bunch of studies out there. Uh, if leadership is not aligned and if there's no cultural readiness, um projects will, for the most part, fail because of that. Um, because what happens is the um what I call the shared mental model has never been established. The understanding of why we're doing this and how we're doing it and who's doing what, um, and just aligning all the assumptions and expectations, um, that is usually jumped over because you know, you just go into, oh yeah, let's buy this, let's sign on the dotted line, and then let's just come up with a project plan and go, go, go. Um, they never take the time to really understand the problem. So if you look at statistics and uh PMI has done pretty extensive um studies on that, if you combine, you know, projects being delayed, um, the cost of misalignment and collaboration, and simply not talking about the same thing, um, it amounts to um almost being a 10% cost for the full IT budget, which is pretty immense. And that is very conservative. Um, so I would even rank that higher. So, you know, mid-sized company um 15 to 20 million in uh in an IT budget uh for the year, um, that comes up to be a pretty hefty number. And uh and again, that's not taking everything into account. So if you think at uh better alignment could actually make you faster and also save you cost at the end of the day, it is uh really irritating to me why so many companies rather wait until something fails and then miraculously they have the funds to fix it. You know, whereas you could really be proactive and prevent this all along.

Jim:

Now, Barbara, when it comes to human infrastructure defined, I had the opportunity to really research and learn a lot of bit about what your definition is for the audience. Could you kind of explain a little bit about your definition of human infrastructure? What does it mean in this context?

Barbara:

So the human infrastructure to me is something that needs to live on top of any technology infrastructure. So as we are building out a server structure and connections between them and do continuous upgrades, we need to do the same with a human infrastructure. And um, starting with that, you need to find out who are your core players in the middle of the organization. And that to me is super important because in the middle of the organization, that is the place where you cannot delegate complexity anymore. They just need to deal with it, they need to execute. And they are usually the quiet ones that really see a lot but don't really want to speak up. Um, so you know, in other words, I'm sure everyone in the organization can think of one or two per people or maybe more that are the ones that everyone goes to when you know there's a decision to be made. There is a question to be asked. They hold the trust of many stakeholders in the organization. So we want to find those and and we want to train them to adopt a gross mindset or how we call it a circular mindset, because human infrastructure is based on circular thinking. It's not a linear way of things anymore, because linearity fails in complexity, and this is where we stand. So, circular mindset means you need to understand um your own superpower and you need to understand how to stand your ground, how to facilitate, and uh how to show up and bring people together. Um, so this is this is an important function. It doesn't mean that you have to train everyone in your organization, but you need to have the stewards of this new thinking that are basically creating the web of people that are actually building that human infrastructure. Once you have several people with that new mindset in your middle organization, it will create ripples because people will get intrigued and they're like, wow, you know, how that meeting went a lot better. How did how did that happen? You know, what did you do? Um, so you cannot really push people into it. You need to make them curious, and you need to have a couple of front runners. And mindset really is the core issue. But that means that you need to clean up yourself because human infrastructure only evolves if uh you evolve as a leader. And that means looking at your own limiting beliefs, at things that you thought were true for so many years. Um, because if you're in a place where your own buttons don't get pushed in a meeting, that's when it gets interesting, and that's when you can really facilitate innovation and change in a good way. The other piece in human infrastructure is that we all know, um, but we hardly really leverage and execute on, and that is a common values structure. You know, the values that are grounding us, um, that are telling us why we're actually doing something, and that also help us to define decision patterns and um, you know, a little bit of a, I don't want to say governance structure that sounds so rigid, but a little bit of a framework on how we act together. And um yeah, and lastly, um, it really is about um building better collaboration and really breaking down the silos that have been stopping us. So it is encouraging really a cross um organizational conversation and uh really thinking end to end and beyond. The thing about it is though, it's hard to build it in-house because you are um your organization right now is an echo chamber. Um, it is hard to implant a couple of people that will think in a new way. That's why we do take these people out and train them in a um cross-industry environment in our collective where they can really upgrade themselves, they can try themselves out. To me, it is something so um wild that we are testing software, we're upgrading software constantly, and we are so um, you know, anal about testing it before we set it live. Well, we don't do that with humans, right? We send them to some training and then it's like, well, here they're off you go, you know, just use it now. So human infrastructure needs a practice ground and it needs uh a safe space where people can really try themselves out so they actually have the muscle to go back into their organization and uh start building that infrastructure in-house.

Jim:

Oh, perfect. So, what I what I kind of take away from what you just said is there's an important aspect for the collaboration and the evolution of human infrastructure related to digital transformation, that there needs to be acceptance and adoption of emotional intelligence, um, psychological safety, and also adaptive leadership. Could you talk a little bit about those three and why they are so critical to that human infrastructure?

Barbara:

Emotional safety is a huge piece. Um, and that is uh usually why things fail. And emotional safety essentially is trust. Um and trust needs to be earned, it's not given. Um, but that also is founded in trusting yourself. And that's why it is so important for us to have uh a safe space in our collective where people can really build that trust in themselves and um strengthen that muscle. So they can go back and uh and be a little bit infectious about um, you know, giving trust, um maybe a little bit ahead of its time, and invite others to follow along. The other piece for uh for shared trust is uh truly the shared values. Um, that to us is a really, really important piece as a foundation. So that as a as a structural piece, um, and then of course the adoptive leadership piece on top, which is largely grounded in really elevating your mindset and uh learning more about you, and um, that will inform the organization that you are leading. And I forgot what the third one was, sorry.

Jim:

Uh we were talking about uh emotional intelligence, psychological safety, and adaptive leadership.

Barbara:

Yes, emotional intelligence. Um that is a term a little bit underrated these days because we are so focused on um upgrading our knowledge about technology, but um we don't really have any places that give a chance to practice what is very human and where we can be vulnerable. Um I also believe we need to start thinking differently about how we train people, because if it is an in-house training and it's uh it's a one-off, no one will actually be vulnerable and show up and say what I always wanted to ask, because you want to look your best. So that in itself is a little bit of a conundrum. Um, and that's exactly why we have created a space where people can come to and they can be. Vulnerable. They can really try out what it means when you are trusted and when you are in a safe space. And what we call digital wisdom, that's basically an a leadership paradigm that is built on very human capabilities that we really need to rediscover and relearn. And this is why what we do is an ongoing practice community. And you are staying part of it and you keep upgrading because that's also what we do with technology.

Jim:

In the uh when you were going through and talking about human infrastructure, you talked about the role of trust and also to having that shared purpose in digital transformation related to uh the company or the organization on the effort on the human infrastructure side. How critical is communication? Does it help in the aspect of transparency, breaking down silos, or is there more to the communication aspect?

Barbara:

Um communication is a is a really important piece. Um and uh just having the ability to ask good questions. That's that's one piece, and the other piece is to be a good listener. And that is two aspects that we don't really train anymore, or we don't give ourselves permission, because there is no permission for pause and anything. We are expected to have instant solutions right when something is dropped into our laps. And um, what we are really practicing with people is to take that pause, to ask better questions, to really understand, and to be a good listener, because the the solution really is in the room. So communication is a lot about listening.

Jim:

Barbara, I appreciate all that you are covering so far. Now let's kind of let's make a shift, let's say a mindset shift, and talk about leaders and also teams. The first question I have for you is how do you go from control to co-creation and the aspect of empowering digital fluency?

Barbara:

So um change starts with one. That is our motto. Um, and uh it really starts with changing the mindset of um several key leaders that are influencing the execution of projects and possibly also uh the strategic direction of the company. Um so that is one piece, and um, it is really um getting people a little bit more um sensitized about what they are what they are saying. So it's it's basically debunking what is happening in meetings. Um if you as a leader have upgraded yourself and you have adopted a new mindset, you can easily point out patterns that are repetitive. And um you can put it in the room and say, well, maybe we want to reframe this. And every team or every company even has um what we call limiting beliefs. And um you find that everywhere. It's like before they before people even entertain thinking about something, it's like, oh, we've tried that before. Oh no, we failed at that 10 times. Oh no, you don't even you don't don't even waste your time. Um no, I don't want to talk to that person because they're always negative. You know, that's um, and even industries have that. Oh, we've done that for a hundred years. You know, why should we change anything? Well, that's not exactly helping um innovation. And the first thing is to really make these things visible in a gentle way by somebody who is really more of a facilitator than um being uh being a co-conspirator because it is so easy to get just infected if you are in a room with 10 people and you're the only one thinking a little bit different and thinking, well, my maybe we should just s think about that for a minute. Um you're getting rolled over if you're not um secure in in yourself, and you just keep to yourself what you wanted to say. It's like, all right, yeah, never mind. No one listens to me anyhow, you know. So um so much for fostering collective intelligence. You really need to have a couple of uh of people who are uh the Trojan horse, if you if you will, um, who are starting to do things a little bit differently, and are persistent and also excited about this new direction.

Jim:

So let me ask you, uh, how do you cultivate a growth mindset, especially when you're dealing with silo departments?

Barbara:

So again, start with the leader. Um, if I go in and do transformation work for um for departments or companies, I would um pick a leader in in each of the core departments and uh train them up in the new mindset. And we have a um a six module training that's um largely self-paced, um, that has a lot of um reflective exercises in there where you're really digging a little bit deeper within yourself. It starts with finding out what my personal values are and what values are informing how I communicate and how I execute. Um so that is the foundation. We always look at what the values for the company are, or oh my god, but we we hardly ever look at you know what is really driving me. And uh that is something so universal that it has informed our entire career, um, who we are as a person, really. And um, it is an anchor that we largely overlook that we can activate a lot more. So, on top of these um values, we start looking at what are limiting beliefs that may have been ingrained in us uh subconsciously by how we grew up or what happened to us along the way, and we look at habits and thought patterns. We give very simple frameworks and how we can uh debunk ourselves and really um as a practice start uh reflecting more, uh pausing more before we react. Um you know, take a little bit of a breath and say, well, wait a minute, what what just happened here? Uh before you engage and do something different. Um and then we look at what really is my superpower? Um, you know, what what am I really good at? If I look back on my my track of achievements and also failures, what was my role for the most part? And uh to really bring that out and make aware uh what we are really good at. You know, maybe we are the peacemaker or the communicator, um and really put that front and center. And from there we shape what we call um a new self-image of how we think about ourselves. Because what I have learned along my career is that people have always seen me in a much higher regard than I had seen myself. And I'm sure a lot of people can totally relate to that. Um, so I was given opportunities to step into that other people thought I was ready for, but I thought I wasn't. So, you know, that that misalignment is just is causing a lot of friction. Um, and it is it certainly is not about uh, you know, inflating ego or anything. It it just is about seeing yourself in in a clear light and really thriving towards who you could be if you were using your superpower in the best possible way. And uh we also teach a lot of very simple um collaboration um you know techniques, um, how to engage, how to also uh find out what the core values of your team are or your project team. So you can start um not just improving yourself, but we also give very simple tools on how you can start little by little improving um your collaboration within the team.

Jim:

Excellent. And and really, I think that growth mindset tends to be the cornerstone for you when it comes to really kind of uh cultivating that growth mindset. What are some of the frameworks or rituals that you do to create that mindset, to develop it?

Barbara:

It's not a one-off thing. It's not something that you are um you know reading about and you're walking through a workbook and uh then it's done. This is a continuous practice. And uh that's what a lot of people underestimate because it is a constant thing that you you always hone, you start looking at, and once you are um bringing your attention to it, um you it's easier to to spot patterns. Um, and then it it starts becoming more of a of a game, right? And one of the the simpler frame uh frameworks we we teach people is um, you know, something happens in a meeting that really pushes your button, and it's like, okay, so take a breath, pause, you know, think about um what is happening now, you know, what um what is the thought in my head and and what is it triggering? So it is more of a of a debunking or making visible what is going on subconsciously, and that's when you can start rewiring and changing. And it's like, okay, so what who how do I want to be going forward? You know, how do I want to twist this limiting belief that is underlying here or that habit that's not serving me anymore? Um, so we make it very, very uh practical. And uh I've developed that after taking you know endless courses uh everywhere and trying to understand how this works. And can somebody give me a building plan? That's because hey, at the end of at the end of the day, I'm German and I'm an IT person. So it's like, hey, can you give me a step-by-step guide here? And no one was able to give me that, so I developed my own. Um and the big piece is you you need uh people around you who are actually embracing and living this mindset that you are still growing into, and that is why it is so important to have a community of people who are wired in the same way. So I think that's the biggest piece that you need to surround yourself with people that are actually a little bit ahead of you. And uh you really need to be very um mindful of the naysayers. Um and that is that is not easy sometimes because there are as many of them.

Jim:

Barbara, let's talk about digital wisdom and practice. Now, the digital wisdom collective, you know, you work with so many different clients and and different uh organizations out there, um, you know, without revealing any type of uh secrets or anything like that, do you have examples of you know real digital wisdom that's put into practice?

Barbara:

Yeah, absolutely. Um, so a a couple of examples on on how people excelled um in the middle. Um that's that that's my my favorite topics because that's always the best transformation stories. Um so in in one example, a test manager in an organization, um she felt like a total imposter because she wasn't coming from an IT background. Um, and she was sort of you know the last one in the food chain. She was always getting the pressure, as we all know. Um, and she was like, I don't know if this is for me. So she went through the mindset training um and uh our peer circle, where was the result that she really turned around from being a victim and the last one in the food chain to really being a creator. And she came up with a concept to um build out her department to get more structured, uh, to get more streamlined, and to really make it a strategic asset in every initiative that was going through the company. So she has totally turned it around. And uh, you know, instead of waiting for a promotion to happen, for something, you know, for strategy to change, she took matters in her own hands, and I really loved seeing that. So now she is uh she got headcount, she's building out her department, and uh the delivery quality of initiatives um has gone up to the highest point they've ever had. Um so that is uh one piece. Another example would be um a head of IT that went through the program. And as you can you can see, it's like we we take all hierarchy levels who feel called for it. Um and he felt pushed in a corner and like um, you know, I I need to grease the machine and make things happen, and I don't know how to actually step into strategy. And uh by going through the mindset training, uh he now has a better communication line to the top leadership. And um people come and talk to him. And uh actually he through changing himself, he really invited communications. Um and uh the co-creation happened naturally for him, where he is now in a place where he doesn't have to do it alone anymore, and he can really spread the load. Um, another example that I found pretty magical, um, head of UX design, um, very talented and in seeing the full picture of an organization, um stepped into an entirely new role in the organization that was more commercial focused, that she would have never done because she found that her superpower is leadership and really leading people. Um, so she stepped out of her known profession and she is now excelling and actually building new revenue streams and business for the company that she has been with for a long time. But for example, HR would have never showed her that road forward. You know, it had to uh come from her to really see the opportunity.

Jim:

And I I can imagine a lot of listeners right now are asking this important question. And they're saying, for my business or my organization, you know, what are ways that we can audit related to digital transformation our human infrastructure? Do you have a few that you would want to share out there to audit uh how to conduct an audit?

Barbara:

Yeah, so we have developed a maturity assessment that not just looks at the human infrastructure, but at your entire system. Um, and from there um we would make suggestions on on what is the best path forward because we do certainly want to avoid um, you know, picking up the wrong rock and turning it around. So we basically have a four-week um what we call an ecosystem sprint where we look at the health of the organization, we do a couple of interviews. Um it's a low barrier offer, but then you know where you stand. And we also give you three suggestions on what is the low-hanging fruit that you can go forward with and uh change.

Jim:

So when you're uh you complete your audit, are there tools and strategies um for embedding wisdom into workflows?

Barbara:

Well, wisdom cannot be trained, it grows really. So um it is um it is a long game. Uh it's not it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Uh but you can certainly certainly start with small aspects and pieces. And the first um thing to start with would uh would actually be values. Um, you know, what are uh dig up what are really the core values for the organization uh and make them come alive again and um give them meaning and also use them as a guiding light when it comes to AI ethics, um, you know, how you make decisions, it can serve in so many ways, um, and it it in a in a very simple way, where where we are a little over-engineering sometimes and it's like, oh, I need a government governance framework. Yes, you need that. But then there's also you know, uh a step in between um of what people can grasp and understand and buy into.

Jim:

So when it comes to global and generational perspectives, uh at the beginning of the uh of the opening of this uh of this podcast, you talked about that you uh raised, grew up uh in Germany, obviously in Europe, and then uh you transported uh here into the United States. Uh you among a lot of listeners out there do recognize that there are so many cross-cultural challenges that exist in all the different regions of the of the globe right now. And these challenges also do impact digital transformation. In what ways do you see that cult uh cross-cultural challenges impacting digital transformation?

Barbara:

Um it is a lot of assumptions that are not talked about. That's uh that's how I see it. Um every cultural foundation has a little bit of a different angle, has uh has different standards and morals they grew up with, has different communication barriers or rules. Um what I see a lot why things are failing is uh because there is no space where assumptions can be put on the table. Um and that being said, um assumptions through the hierarchy of the organizations. Um when you talk to a board member, the assumption would be, well, of course, we need AI, you know, that's we're gonna be dead without it. And you kind of go down the food chain and uh you have different angles um as you go along. And uh you need you need to combine all these things. First of all, you need to put them out on the table, and then it's like, okay, so where do we go from here? So what is our truth? And uh and how can we uh can we move forward? So it really is having um courageous conversations and and building the safe spaces um where those can be had. Um that is one piece. Um, but that being said, it really uh we are talking about mature adults in the room, right? Um so that's why it is so important that um a certain amount of leaders are going through the mindset work and are able to then um be more of a facilitator and not be tangled up in those differences. Um so yeah, I mean uh w we are a global world, we're always gonna have different viewpoints, and it really is a matter of how we um how we go about it. And uh, you know, just coming from Germany and being now here in the US, very different aspects of things. While the Germans totally overplan and want to make things 150% uh proof before they start. You know, you would have the other extremes here, which like, oh, let's try this out, let's fail, it's this is great. Um, you know, coming from Europe, that's sometimes a scary thing. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, it's like, hold on a minute, can we just talk about this? Um, so it's just understanding how the others are are functioning, and it comes back to uh being a good listener. Also, if you look at different generations, um, and to me it's interesting because uh whatever conference I go to, you know, the Gen Cs are made out to be so bad. And uh I don't see that because they are they are bringing an angle that makes me think um as somebody who's old, you know, in their mind. Um, but I need to be open to listen to that perspective. And yes, they may be coming in hot and and uh you know making demands and such, but then I also have to be uh truthful to myself and say, well, you know, I was uh I was working a lot when I was climbing up the ladder, and they are they are right at questioning if this is really a sustainable way of doing it. Um it's not like things have to be falling into your lap, but is there is there a different way, you know, and that to me is a very courageous question to ask. Um and also how are we how are we most productive? And their demand of wanting to have purpose and meaning and really understanding why things are done, to me is very clever, you know. I mean, hey, I was raised in in a generation where it was like, well, whatever your boss is telling you, you better, you know, go execute on it. And and you gotta work hard and you know, blood, sweat, and tears. And if you work hard enough, you're you're gonna get somewhere. Um and maybe that's not the way anymore. You know, what if things could be easy? What if things could be easy, but we all have to work together? Um, and we all have to use also our generational strengths to the fullest. Um but that also would mean that the older generation needs to get a little bit wiser, not be disgruntled anymore about things that didn't go so well, you know, opportunities that passed, uh careers they never, you know, made shiny as they had intended in the younger years. You know, we have to be at peace with with uh where we are, uh, so we can be get better guides for the next generation. Um so yeah, there's there's there's a lot of work to be done, and there is such an immense opportunity um laying there. And I really love talking to you know younger people who are just coming up in the ranks. Uh, and I can learn a ton. You know, I don't being older, I don't think I know everything. God, I'm still learning every day. And and uh it's good when I get questioned and when I get something that makes me think, you know, that's what I love. So I think age is overrated in both directions. Uh, and wisdom doesn't really have a label that goes with age. We think that older people are wise. What I see that's not the case.

Jim:

All right, Barbara. We're gonna wrap this up and I'm gonna ask you a couple uh insight questions for uh of you related to your your top three mindset blockers in digital transformation. What would you say those three mindset blockers are?

Barbara:

This is an IT issue. That's the biggest piece. It's not our problem, it's an IT problem. Um, so that is that is a huge blocker. It is um technology is part of every company's DNA, if you want it or not. And that needs to kind of sink in for people. So it is an in uh a leadership problem, it's not an IT problem. The IT person can facilitate and can bring information to the table, but everyone in the C-suite and the top management needs to be responsible. Um the other uh misconception is that uh training is an HR issue. It's not. Um, if you are starting a technology project, everyone needs to get together and say, who do we have? Where do we have gaps? What really is missing to make this successful? So the alignment between HR and IT needs to be constant. They need to be attached to the hip. This whole grappling of whose budget is it, I would can that entirely and say human infrastructure upgrade needs to be a permanent OPEX line in the IT budget. So that's the second one. And uh the third one would be this is easy. We can do it in two months. Yeah, others have done it. Why can't we do it? So starting with an immense amount of pressure from sea level before you've even uh started out of the gate. Um if a consultancy comes in this way and says, Oh yeah, this is easy, we can finish it in a couple of months, I would question that choice uh massively. Um so you want people who are actually giving you the real talk and are um planning realistically. So let's talk realistic numbers, you know, in time needed, in budget needed, in people needed. Um, there is such a huge fear out there to always, you know, powder coat it and it's like, oh, it's not gonna be that bad. Oh, of course we can make it with one million less. Oh, yeah, we happily take that budget cut. Not a problem. Um so no, let's be realistic and let's also slice it into pieces that are digestible. We don't always have to big to to do the big hunk of everything. Another one I want to throw on the table is it's gonna be easy because we're gonna do it agile. And that to me is the kiss of death. If you are as an organization have not acted agile in any way before, and somebody marches in and says, we're gonna do agile now, ain't gonna happen. So the method needs to match your culture, and that's very important. There is no right or wrong, there is no happy or sad, it needs to fit the people and the culture. So don't let anyone push you over with this is how you ought to do it, and otherwise this is gonna fail.

Jim:

So let me ask you this next question. All that we cover today, one book, one ritual, or one question that every leader should ask from you, what would that be?

Barbara:

The question for every leader is um why are we doing this? And why are we doing this now? And um if no one can answer to that question, um it's bad. I would I would question that priority then. Um that is yeah. And um just make this make this part of your your meetings, you know, always if no one can answer that, then it's bad. The other ritual that I would highly recommend, uh, because we start initiatives, projects, and uh we do the big hoopta in a kickoff meeting, and we say, ooh, this is where we want to go, and yay, yay. Um I would make one slide for every meeting, and I would repeat, repeat, repeat why we're doing this and what we're shooting for, what we're trying to achieve. And I would make this a part of every the first slide of every meeting, repeat it, remind everyone, because it will kill a lot of discussions that are not serving the purpose. Um, and that's also how you can nip this entire scope creep a little bit in the butt if you constantly remind yourself what the end product ought to be.

Jim:

Excellent, excellent. And then also in closing this out, you know, what do you wish more executives what they would under what they understood about digital wisdom?

Barbara:

That it is uh it is not a one-off shot. It is uh a continuous practice, and it really is a leadership paradigm and leadership muscle that is needed today to make your organization and your digital transformations successful. It is not a nice to have, it will become a critical skill to have to build your human infrastructure and at the end of the day to save yourself a lot of money. For everyone who's gone through the training, the numbers we have is they save about 20% of external consulting cost. So basically, for every dollar you invest, you save five. And that I think is a pretty good ROI to have these days.

Jim:

And uh closing out this episode in this interview, I would just basically want to share with everyone that it's super critical to make sure that you do have the human infrastructure because if you are missing the human infrastructure, it's gonna, in most cases, it's gonna derail your digital initiatives. Barbara, what call to action do you have for the listeners?

Barbara:

My call to action would be to uh to take a little bit of a step back and look at all the portfolio you have planned for 2026, all the magical things that you have on the agenda. And I would do a reality check at the start of the year to say, okay, so if we're truthful with ourselves, what really is important and what can our organization handle? And what really has the highest dollar impact at the end of the day? Or is it maybe some ego-driven thing that no one needs? That would be my advice. Declutter your garage. Look at it before the the year actually gets into full swing.

Jim:

That's great advice. So, everyone, in the episode description, I will have links uh uh to the Digital Wisdom Collective and other links as well, and information uh regarding Barbara and uh and uh hold to uh contact and also to how to uh get in touch and and learn a little bit more about Digital Wisdom Collective. Uh in closing, Barbara, is there anything that we didn't talk about that you would want to share before we close out the episode?

Barbara:

No, this has been amazing, and um thanks for having me as a guest. Uh great conversation, and I hope your listeners uh can take away a couple of ideas.

Jim:

Beautiful, beautiful. Barbara, thank you so much. And for everyone, please make sure that you are following and also too sharing this content with others. Uh the digital transformation with Jim Kunkel is available on all platforms for you. So make sure you do give it a follow and you do share the content. Thank you, everyone.

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Jim Kunkle

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